audioguru Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Don't forget your discovery that the CD4049 is a lousy linear amplifier and that a CD4069 would be better, would operate with less current has fewer number of pins so is smaller.Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 hi! this day was not like what i imagined it to be.. when my adviser and i met this afternoon, he asked if i had everything with me. i said yes. he asked for the circuit. i handed it to him. he also asked for the spare components i have, including the bread board.. i also gave him the printouts i have - those that were from this forum and also the msn conversations.. after that, he walked away.. he's going to work on the circuit by himself. he said he will just give it to me at school on MOnday... i never got the chance to try the things that you have advised me... anyway, i guess it's better this way.. at least he won't totallt blame me if this thing doesn't really work.. maybe, i'll just tell you how his work on the circuit went when i see him on MOnday.. How will i learn if i can't see how my project is done? :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 good day! has anybody built the whistle responder circuit and made it work? my adviser thinks it'll never work.. he said that the IC used (CD4069 CMOS Hex Inverter) can never be used as an amplifier.. i want to know if anybody had already made the circuit with a 4069 IC..even if you haven't built it, i need your opinion if a 4069 can be used as an amplifier like that in the whistle responder circuit.. thanks again.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 good day! has anybody built the whistle responder circuit and made it work? my adviser thinks it'll never work.. he said that the IC used (CD4069 CMOS Hex Inverter) can never be used as an amplifier.. i want to know if anybody had already made the circuit with a 4069 IC..even if you haven't built it, i need your opinion if a 4069 can be used as an amplifier like that in the whistle responder circuit.. thanks again..correction.. i mean a CD4049.. i got confused.. sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staigen Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi LoganYour adviser is totally wrong, it can be used as an amplifier, and a good amp too!You almost had it working when your adviser took it apart from you, he should be ashamed!//Staigen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 hey! i need proof! can you please give me alink to a site or something that says all about this CD4049.. all i'm getting out of google are PDFs.. they usually contain basic infos.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staigen Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 HiThere is an aplication note fron RCA about this, i will check later for the name of it!//Staigen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi logan,I have used the CD4069 as a linear amplifier many times and it works well. RCA had an appl. note which is also in National's AN-88 applications note about their 74C04, which is the same as the CD4069.The CD4069 is completely symmetrical, so operates very well as a linear amplifier and has a fairly low current so has symmetry with high gain.The CD4049 is fairly high current and is terribly assymmetrical. I haven't seen one. Since it is high current then I think its gain will be low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 A 4069 is better than a 4049, right? i will try a 4069.. have to go now.. i have a class.. i will re-design the circuit while attending my class. i'll have it sent to you for checking..thanks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 My 1st graph shows that a CD4069 or 74C04 inverter with a 3V supply and a high resistance as a negative feedback resistor and a low resistance as its inverting input resistor has a voltage gain of about 500 at low frequencies. The Whistle Responder mic preamp can't have a low value for its input resistor so its gain will be a little less than 500.Our Keys Finder Project uses CD4069 inverters as linear amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 hi!i skipped class to ask you guys about something.. my adviser wired the circuit in the breadboard.. he said that although he wired it correctly and have the same output voltage, the circuit is still not functioning.. he concluded that the circuit will not function.. he said that i should replace the linear amplifiers.. IC1a, IC1b, and IC1c.. he wants me to replace it with transistors or OPamps.. i don't know how? is that possible? how am i suppose to wire them? i still think it would be better to use a 4069 instead.. but i am not sure if i will make the correct design with a 4069.. it has only 14 pins compared with 16 on the 4049.. besides, it has a different pin configuration.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 audioguru sent me this once.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 so the pin equivalent is: 4049 4069pin 3 = pin1pin 5 = pin3pin 7 = pin5so on...are my assumptions correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Everybody's sleeping!! :(can you please confirm my assumptions as soon as you are available? thanks a lot.. i'll wait.. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staigen Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi LoganI found the appnote on my computer in the end, it was not in the book! ;DI found two versions of it!Here they are://StaigenAN-88.pdfAN-0088.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 i can't open the AN-88..can u please re-post it.. tahnks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Here is another applications note about the voltage input vs the voltage output of ordinary Cmos logic that is applicable to using inverters as linear amplifiers. The ouput Mosfets are perfectly symmetrical:AN-90.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 so the pin equivalent is: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 what can you say about my professor's idea that i replace the inverters with transistors and opamps? i read them tomorrow.. i have to go now.. tahnks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi Logan,You could use a low power LM324 quad opamp instead of the Cmos inverters IC and design the bandpass filter to operate better. The supply current will be about 1mA and an expensive and fairly large CR2430 3V lithium coin cell battery will last only about 12 days if the circuit doesn't beep.I just finished testing a CD4069 hex inverters IC with two inverters biased with negative feedback as linear amplifiers. With a 3.0V supply, each inverter had a DC output voltage of 1.8V. The supply current was only 14uA, so a CR2430 lithium coin cell battery would last for 12 weeks. A cheaper smaller battery could be used. Beeping would exhaust the battery quicker.With the 10k to 4.7M feedback resistors as used in the Whistle Responder project, the voltage gain was 110, and a 2Vp-p sinewave output was slightly distorted. The high frequencies were down -3dB at 2kHz. The 10mVp-p output of an electret microphone would be amplified well to 1.1Vp-p.With 10K to 1M feedback resistors, the voltage gain was 40 and a 2Vp-p sinewave output looked perfect. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 hi there!i have downloaded the pdf file about LM324.. even with all those info, i still don't know how? can somebody please show me how? i really don't have the luxury of time to experiment.. i have scheduled my defence this coming friday.. i don't have any choice. if i can't really find a way to make the circuit work, the panelist might fail me. and that is not a good thing.. anyway, i'm trying my best to make this thing work.. and i appreciate very much your help...i have tried the 4069. it didn't work.. even the oscillator is not working.. in the 4049, the oscillator is working, that is because it beeped when i removed D2 or reverse it..thanks for the help.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 We can't teach you about opamps, your professor should teach you.Post the voltage readings of the CD4069 circuit and we will fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 i was up all night! i haven't gotten any sleep yet.. i haven't tested the circuit last night, cause i left the breadboard the my friend's apartment.. anyway.i spent all night, writing chapters 4&5 and revising chapters1-3.. it took my whole seven sleeping hours to have it "almost" finished.. while writing chapters 4&5, i realized that i have still lots of questions to ask you guyz... for now.. i'll present to you the voltage readings i have with the 4069: (note: the supply is 3.0V)pin2 - 3Vpin4 - 1.8Vpin6 - 1.8Vpin8 - 0Vpin10 - 1.8V / 2.0V pin12 - 1.0V /1.2Vmic - 1V (note: mic resistor used was 10K instead of the 22K)why is it that the needle was swaying/waving when i am measuring pins10&12? is it normal? the moment i swithched on the power supply, it makes faint beeping sounds..i also removed R5 and replaced R4 with a wire.. still there was the beeping sound..removing C3 would disable the filter right? and that means that the circuit can recognize all the sounds.. even if i had c3 on, the circuit is beeping.. nothing changes when i remove it..in the 4049, removing or reversing D2 drives the oscillator, which makes the buzzer beep.. in my 4069 wiring, removing/reversing D2 doesn't have any effect..i think that's all i can give your right now.. never mind the opamps.. i am not interested.. it's too complicated.. i hope i have given all the necesary data tha will help you help me make the circuit work...COUNTDOWN TO FINAL DEFENSE: 48hours15mins (DO or DIE!!)thanks for the help.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Logan,You are using a different IC. Which pin number does what?????Please post a schematic with the pin numbers you used so I can see what they do and which ones if any have a wrong voltage, or a cross-reference list.Your meter wavers because the oscillator is running at about 8Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logan_dslasher Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 i am having a hard time working on the image of the schematic..CD4049 CD4069pin1 pin14pin2 pin2pin3 pin1pin4 pin4pin5 pin3pin6 pin6pin7 pin5pin8 pin7pin9 pin9pin10 pin8pin11 pin11pin12 pin10pin13pin14 pin13pin15 pin12pin16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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